Rock Music ... Satanic?!!

[Pounce]

[Pounce]

[Sleet]

We weren't referring to rock music in general, we were mostly referring to common types of Christian rock, and how diluted the message becomes due to the lyrical delivery.

[Pounce]

[SirBrak]

I used to have the biggest problem with Christian rock -- it seemed like a bad step child of two distinct forms of music.

The church I grew up in was hymnals only -- a choir accompanied by a piano and maybe an un-amplified acoustic guitar. Very traditional, slow hymns. To combine that was Christian music -- it seemed like you got stuff that was not as good as either of the former -- and you wound up with Christian music that made you want ot listen to the non-Christian music it was based off of.

And then along came Five Iron Frenzy. I fell in love with the band. It was a good mix of ska/rap/raggae/rock/metal/Christian. The band was all of those genres -- and yet none of them at the same time. It was that band that got me really listening to Christian music.

That was a number of years ago. Since then, I've joined a more "modern" church near my new house/workplace -- and they play contemp. stuff. I like it -- I can't imagine singing anything else, really. The thing that "pulled me over" to that side was the fact that a lot of the songs I like -- they're straight up from the Bible. Granted, it's usually only a few verses of a much larger passage -- but the best songs come straight from the Bible, in my opinion. Like Hebrew chant of old -- just put to more modern music.

There are still some styles that I won't listen to -- what I call the "cookie-cutter" stuff -- the stuff that is an obvious rip-off of other bands and stuff. It just annoys me. And the overly-played stuff -- that irks me. The whiney stuff -- all of that jazz.

But, there are some styles that are more mainstream that I'll listen to and enjoy -- various Mercy Me songs or the like.

But the stuff I really enjoy is the modernization of a lot of music -- Lecrae (rap), Five Iron Frenzy/Relient K (Ska/rock), Matisyahu (ragae), Disciple (metal), Derek Webb (folk/electronica). I've noticed -- if a song directs me to think about God in a worshipful manner -- than how could it not be worship music? For me, these artists are enough of a difference to the mainstream that they don't feel like they are lame copies of other bands -- unlike most of the mainstream music today -- which are just lame copies of each other. (90% of rap, Nickleback, Creed, pop-princess-of-the-month -- you get the idea) Basically, if I wouldn't listen to it "secularly", I'm not going to listen to it "worshipfully".

Of course, there is the stuff that is clearly secular that can also be used as worship music -- the song "Look How Far We've Come" by Matchbox 20, for example. The song really has nothing to do with Christianity -- but it certainly causes me (and a number of my friends) to reflect upon Christ's impact in the world and how our pushing away from that is causing more bad crap to happen all the time.

I guess this is a round-a-bout way of saying -- for me, if the songs causes me to go into a worshipful state -- than it's clearly worship music. Does it have to be direct quoting from the Bible to be worship -- no. Can a song have modern instruments/complex song structure/multi-part harmony and still be Christian -- yes. Do you honestly think that if the know-how and the overall instrumentation was available as freely then as it is now that the early Christian church wouldn't have used some instruments? Brass, woodwinds, drums, keys?

[Gyp]

"if the songs causes me to go into a worshipful state"

That is an extremely subjective criterion. Christian rock never makes me go into a worshipful state. In fact, usually it annoys me and can even lead me into some very unChristian thoughts. ("man it would feel so good to go up there and smash that guitar DX" etc. ) Therefore, if I started going to your church, then you should stop with the Christian rock, right? So that I can worship, too?

I think there must be an OBJECTIVE way to decide what should stay in church and what should not, rather than basing it off what people's "feelings" about it are. After all, we believe in objective truth, do we not? That is why I think tradition should play a large part in this--what kinds of music always make everyone think if church? Hearing monks chanting Gregorian chant, maybe. The same is true for traditional hymns: there is nothing but Christianity attached to them. Gregorian chant or old hymns can't remind me of mosh pits or drugs. Christian rock can, even if it doesn't mean to.

Likewise, I think the text should be the next objective criterion. Which came first, the text or the music? Is the text from Sacred Scripture and/or Sacred Tradition? Can you hear every word clearly and understand the text being sung?

I don't think you can have one without the other. Traditional-sounding music with no text or inaudible text is nothing but background sound. (This is why I don't like organ solos or any instrumental bits in church, which always seem to have a concert feel to them, to me.) But music in current pop and secular styles, even if the texts are absolutely stellar, are divorced from Christian tradition in such a way that I find it appalling in church.

[SirBrak]

Just out of curiosity -- how do you feel about "traditional" hymns? Amazing Grace -- Rock of Ages -- that kind of stuff?

How does something like Tzama L'chol Nafshi strike you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnwpBuS1Qlo&feature=related

This is sung by Matisyahu -- a Jewish raggae/rapper who is probably most famous for this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChV5BZ8SmS0.
or this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Kf4esMvdE&feature=channel
or this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8ULIw0Zgaw&feature=channel

[Morons]

"Therefore, if I started going to your church, then you should stop with the Christian rock, right?"--As we Russians say, Do not go into another's temple with your own commandments. I am afraid that there is no WAY something can be considered "unholy" where religion is concerned--your standards apply to you. And no one else.
There are Christians who go into convulsions as part of their religious rites, and no one would touch them, but if you have rock music, it is okay to say it is UN-Christian? Such standards are what makes hypocrites.
And, as for Objectivity--I think we abandon that in any discussion that talks about Satanic influences. You want to know if something is Satanic, you ask a Satanist, not a Christian.
In fact, I would go one step further, and say that there is no Christian music, but that played by Christians--Nothing Human Was Alien to Him, after all, and who is to say if the angriest, screaming metal music cannot fulfill a spiritual role?

[Sleet]

[Gyp]

[IantheGecko]

Sleet makes a good point. You know all those verses in Psalms that sing of praising God on the lyre and harp and flutes and tambourines? The psalmists mentioned them because those were the instruments they had; my interpretation is that they're saying to praise Him with all the instruments available to them.

Now we have so many more musical instruments: guitars, violins, horns, keyboards, drums...music is a talent, a gift from God. Why not praise Him with what we have now? Does it really matter to God which instruments we use in worship as long as we sing His praises? It's like all the differerent languages humans speak. God doesn't just answer prayers, or listen to hymns, in Hebrew, Latin, Greek, or English; He hears them in Thai and Swahili, Gaelic and Turkish. It's not the sound of the worship that matters but the very act that does.

[Morons]

Actually, if you examine any religious belief, it is ultimately personal. How can you be certain that your neighbor is a TRUE Christian? Or, a faithful Muslim? Or, a good Jew? Ultimately, religion is something between YOU and the DIVINE. Therefore, what you do in temple, to reach the divine, is a business between YOU and the DIVINE--and, sometimes, the owner/master of the temple.
In other words, I stand by what I said--some temples will approve of rock, others won't, and it is ultimately the business of opinion, not of "concensual reality", or even of the Truth. My opinion is that the above works well, and that there is nothing wrong with using what music you have, and can make. But then again, I figure if people started having personal relationships with God, they wouldn't need temples, so I suppose there may be a reason why someone might not want alternative means of prayer around...

[SirBrak]

[Keijiei]

Since we're talking about "songs that cause [us] to go into a worshipful state," I'll add this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdqnhu6mtVY

I find Moby's music provides more than most "religious" music.

[Pounce]

Ok, rock music is for me nothing i would consider for a peacefull state of mind, i hear it when i am up for an emotional roller coaster (but well to each there own or how the saying goes..)

I prefer new age going from treehugging celtic over gregorian chants with instrumental background to inuit chants (the translated texts have an depths one who was educated from an western world centric worldview would never expect)